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Suffocated by Taxes

Are we getting our money's worth in our Long Island school districts or are we getting schooled on how to waste?

As we approach another summer on Long Island, I put my Empire Pass on my car, booked a camping vacation in a New York State Park and prepared for summer camps and recreations for my kids; I began to think about all the money we pay in taxes and fees and where does it all goes to.

I’m not a native Long Islander, only living on the island for the last four years, so the idea of $10,000 tax bills and fees to use parks is still something I’m not used to. Attempting to be a fiscally sound person in these trying economic times, I began to ask, "What am I getting on Long Island that is so much better than everywhere else that my taxes should be so high?"

It’s a question that I have posed to my fiancé and other native Long Islanders over the last several years.  And I seem to get the same answers: "Our schools are better than other places." We are safer than other places." We have a ton of parks that we can use." "We have a large public transportation system. "We
have amazing beaches …. all these things cost money."  But when I pose the question -- "Do you really think your money is going as far as you think it does?" -- no one seems to have a real answer.  So I began to do some research and what I found was just appalling.

Let’s start with the number one answer, and I think the number one reason why taxes are so high: the Long Island educational system.  Long Island has been touted as having one of the best educational systems in the country, well by other Long Islanders anyway. Well, let’s take a look at some of the facts.  According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average hourly wage for a teacher in 2011 was $56.59 per hour. 

Let’s take a look at how that compares to other industries with high levels of education: Environmental Engineer $39.72, Chemical Engineer $38.88, Physician Assistant $37.84, Nuclear Engineer $35.23, Civil Engineer $33.06, Chemist $31.35.  Should a teacher earn $21.36 per hour more than a Nuclear Engineer?

“But it’s so expensive to live on Long Island.  If we don’t pay our teachers more, they won’t be able to afford to work here.”  Is this all too often argument
actually true?  Well, let’s look at the numbers again.  According to LongIslandSchool.com, a website dedicated to promoting schools on Long Island, the average teacher’s salary in Nassau County in 2011 was $75,284 per year.  According to the United States Census Bureau, the average wage in Nassau County is $41,387.  I really wonder how the 1,324,701 people who live in Nassau County afford to live.

“But our schools are so much better than other schools across the country. After all, that’s why people want to live here.”  Really, is that true?  The average school in Nassau County spends $16,943 per student. 

According to U.S. News and World Report, published in 2011, the highest ranked schools on Long Island are South Side High School in Rockville Centre, ranked 22nd nationwide, Jericho High School, ranked 94th nationwide, and … oh wait, there are no other schools ranked in the top 100. Considering the average national spending per student is $9,963 and schools in Nassau County spend on average $16, 943 per student, are we really that much better and are we really getting our money's worth?

It sounds to me like we need to start taking a harder look at our schools, our
teachers, and our administrators and really question if we are getting what we
pay for. I can’t understand how we can justify paying our teachers an average of $33,897 per year more than the average Long Islander?  How can we
justify spending $6,980 per student more than the average and only have two
schools in top standings in the country? We need to stop listening to the Teacher’s Unions and start listening to common sense.

Over the next couple of blogs, we will continue to explore the expense on Long Island and tackle the other tough questions that face us. Feel free to follow along and comment.

JOE June 28, 2012 at 02:03 pm
To all the posters who think that the removal of labor laws is a good thing. Once again I state that I am a taxpaying resident not a teacher. Look at all the benefits that you take for granted like S.S. , medicaid medicare, overtime requirements , OSHA, Human resource deptartments and too many more to list. Most if not all of these are a result of the eforts of UNIONIZED LABOR. Thats right even if you do not belong to a union you should be grateful that we have them. Why do you have a Human resources department? They make no profit for the company. 1. they were created to make sure the company follows all the applicable laws (that unions were partly responsible for getting created) so they do not get sued. 2. To make sure that you as an employee get treated fairly enough that you do not want to becom a union representing you. The labor movement and the union people behind them were the ones screaming that they wanted a fair days wage for a fair days pay which included the requirement to get overtime , safety laws , discrimination laws etc. So your ideas to get rid of the taylor law or any other labor laws may not come with the results that you are looking for.Everybody keeps screaming about the teachers salaries. Who do you think agreed on our, the taxpayers behalf to give them the contract? Your school board which YOU did or were supposed to VOTE for or against. So do not blame the teachers, the superintendent, the janitors or anybody else but the BOE.
MP Majority June 28, 2012 at 02:05 pm
Sure, we should do this. It's a no-brainer. However, when you have the people who would be responsible for making such a radical change, as the people who have created these fiefdoms, there is a ZERO chance of this ever happening. We will continue to use the existing bloated systems as the basis for moving forward. Disgusting yes, change for change - Nil.
Mac June 28, 2012 at 02:38 pm
Jerry this is your response one word...laughable I have about 49 for you where shall I start..Alabama. ALaska, Arizona, Arkansas................. One rogue REPUBLICAN who broke the law and didnt care. Rememeber he didnt change any laws either. Apparently as we all know politicians can break the law with no recourse. Last time I checked NY hasnt been Republican in how long?????? I bet you thought your one word response was real clever. How long did it take you to think of that?
Mac June 28, 2012 at 02:42 pm
JD why doesnt it hold water? I say comparing private to public itself is an invalid comparison. Private is risk vs reward you can certainly attain more in the private world cant you? Why cant we compare top earners in the private industry to top earners in the public industry? I know it doesnt serve your opinion does it? What I am saying is compare your top end private to top end public. You cannot compare a teacher to say a grocery clerk, bartender etc....Lets just compare top earners because that is the end result.
Christopher D'Antonio June 28, 2012 at 03:00 pm
Kyle,
I think your analysis opens some very useful thoughts for consideration, but I believe that some modifiers are at hand for its basis. I don't think that the national average spending per student is readily comparable to the average spent in Nassau or Suffolk, but would rather suggest that we look at comparable "rings" of other metropoli such as Chicago or Los Angeles, because their baseline costs and the nature of their regional economies should be more readily comparable to our own. Also, I think, unfortunately the root of teachers seeming to be paid "$56.59" per hour is that they work less than a full year. This is not meant to disparage those teachers who do earn their salaries during the summer, but I would suggest that if a teacher's salary were considered over an entire year, they would be paid an income which would seem more reasonable. Additionally, I would be interested to see what amount of teachers in Nassau or Suffolk have earned their master's degrees, which may further account for why in the pre-recession period school boards would have attempted to be intensely competitive over highly qualified teachers which could have led to an unsustainable salary structure post-recession. Unfortunately, even though school districts are non-profit entities, that does not stop them from competing in the market for educated labor to staff their schools, and once one school offers an increase, the others follow suit in order to not fall behind.
Dad of Three June 28, 2012 at 04:07 pm
Joe has posted something that is pure BS: "So do not blame the teachers, the superintendent, the janitors or anybody else but the BOE."
First, each Superintendent is the chief executive officer of a school district t; yes, he reports to a board of directors, the Board of Education, but they do not perform the duties of a CEO, that is the Superintendent & his/her central office staff. Second, in a few districts (happily, not in mine since 2003) there is an udue influence of the teachers union in BOE elections, and in some districts there is a palpable level of back room cooperation between the local teachers union & the superintendent, making it not only difficult to get objectively independent elections, but difficult to have true arms length negotiations when it comes to not only periodic labor contracts, but even work rules negotiations. Third, NY State has imposed a myriad of mandates and restrictions upon school districts, driving up costs (with ever-decreasing State aid to pay for some of those costs) but making it nearly impossible to obtain a future labor agreement based upon free exercise of rights by both the district and the union. One of the worst of these is the Triborough Amendment to the Taylor Law which gives teachers unions a stranglehold on school districts in any contract negotiations. Joe is conveniently trying to blame the only part of the governance equation, the unpaid volunteer BOE Trustees, instead of all of the paid participants.
JOE June 28, 2012 at 04:29 pm
If my post is pure BS then you really need to look at the facts. The BOE negotiates the contracts for everyone. If you think that the teachers union has a big influence on the election, you are right. Who do you blame ? the residents who choose not to vote . Voter turnout for all elections are always low and that is why we have the problems in this country that we do .. Fact: the Taylor law bars the teachers from striking and forces mediation between the school and the union. You think that is bad?
Mac June 28, 2012 at 04:50 pm
Dad be fair please let everyone know that the triborough amendment is not specific for teachers, not instituted specifically for teachers and stems from unfair negotiating tactics from the employer aspect of public employment. The taylor law nor the amendment were not meant for this to happen. By taking away the right to strike it gave employers all the power then keeping the current contract leveled the field. You cant have one without the other. The Taylor Law and TB go way beyond teachers on LI but through every civil service job in the state. Changing either would have huge ramifications and in reality be the end of a political career.
Dad of Three June 28, 2012 at 05:02 pm
The BOE does not negotiate the contract for every district; they do, however, have to ratify the contracts which the Superintendent tentatively agrees with a particular union, teachers included.
In some districts, the outside labor counsel may do the negotiating, particularly if it is a contentious negotiation. In most districts, however, it is the Sup't and sometimes the Ass't Sup't for Human Resources who do the negotiation. And in a very, very few districts, the BOE gets directly involved. But you make it seem like that is the rule, rather than the exception, when the reality is it is the other way around. Clearly you live in a district where you don't like the BOE, and others posting here live in districts which are non-candid and maybe even unduly secretive. But my experience is that a reform-minded BOE, as we have had since 2003, can be both responsive to residents as well as diligent in governance matters. And, based upon what I have witnessed in scores of other districts, whose BOE meetings I attended in a Best Practices exercise, most districts do a pretty good job with BOE governance. I simply reject your willingness to blame the only people who have no financial gain or financial interest in contract negotiation results, for any flaws in the system. Look for the smoke, and you'll usually find the fire, Joe. Just don't go painting all districts with the negative broad brush you are using.
Dad of Three June 28, 2012 at 05:07 pm
I grant the validity of your statement about application to all public sector employees.
However, I don't agree that it would be the end of a political career for anyone courageous enough to help with such a change. If the law is changed to be written only for those related to health and safety (WHLI's angels on the head of a pin argument aside), then it would mean that some public sector unions would contribute money to opponents of courageous legislators, but they do that now, anyway.
Lorraine DeVita June 28, 2012 at 05:11 pm
Ah Dad of three i have to take exception with the information you just shared.. According my SD's districts contract the BOARD not the Super does the negotiating but they can and DO leave it up to Counsel.to negotiate the TERMS THEY established. The BOARD establishes the terms NOT the SUPER. They establish the paremeters NOT the Super. The BOARD is the decision maker not the Super.
They may ask the super for his suggestions and input but LEGALY the BOARD is responsible.....What district are you in? .
Walter S June 29, 2012 at 01:08 am
What is laughable about this whole discussion "suffocated by taxes" is that (for anyone who remembers), it was Mario Cuomo who came out with this whole platform back when he was Governor that all teachers should be making 100k plus in annual salary and he was the one who initiated this mess we are now in. When a teacher makes 100k plus, the pension costs also go up accordingly. Back then, in the 1980's, teachers were not making enough to stay here on L.I., they were leaving the state and getting better offers in other states. Now the pendulum has swing far in the other direction and it is his son Andrew who has to fix it. With the private sector taking a beating these past years these cost are still there.
Dad of Three June 29, 2012 at 04:32 am
I am in one of the eight districts in the Town of Huntington.
What district are you in? By the way, I never said that our BOE (or others) gives no guidance, nor sets any parameters, for the Superintendent. What I said, Lorraine, was that in most districts the Superintendent does the negotiating, and sometimes legal counsel does it (usually with the Superintendent), but very rarely does a BOE do the negotiating. Therefore, you put words into my mouth (or fingers).
Concerned Commackian June 29, 2012 at 12:46 pm
100's of millions Heart. Tons of money. Gravy Train killing money!!!!
We Heart Long Island June 29, 2012 at 12:57 pm
How was that number calculated?
Concerned Commackian June 29, 2012 at 08:41 pm
I multiplied tons and tons of dead weight by thousands and thousands of dollars. Actually, there was so much dead weight and so many thousands of dollars piddled away, that I had to get a calculator with a larger display. But, as we both know, no Gravy Train leaves the station without several carloads of taxpayer cash, right?
Concerned Commackian June 29, 2012 at 08:43 pm
Mac, you just make no sense.
tim June 30, 2012 at 07:44 pm
You can't speak about national avgs. per student or teacher salaries. I'm a teacher, I live on Long Island. I occupy a small Cape Cod house. My mortgage is $3500,
my utilities are through the roof. If I factor out the amt. of tax I pay for teacher salaries,, about $550 per month, I still HAVE a $3000 mortgage (for a relatively small house). We pay more here for electricity, groceries, sat tate and local tax, etc. If you think teachers live in luxury here you're wrong. Look what they drive. Go check out a school parking lot.
Jeffrey Dinardo sr July 16, 2012 at 03:59 am
85% o my 16k tax bill goes to public school . So yes it's a problem. How can home owners continue to pay ??? Its absurd , and unsustainable ! Privatize schools and let them compete to provide the best education for our kids. How many professions work 180 days a year ? Average time off for private sector workers 2-3 weeks vaca a year ! State and gov have continued to prove they can not manage a busines. They need skin in the game..problem goes beyond teachers, but it's a good start to cut back and restructure public sector.
Felix Procacci November 15, 2012 at 12:00 pm
Everyone, please write Town of Hempstead Supervisor Kate Murray at katemurray@tohmail.org and ask her to donate 75% of the General Services Postage budget (of $2.4 million dollars) to help the victims of Hurricane Sandy, or JUST FORWARD THIS message to katemurray@tohmail.org.
Kate Murray currently sends out about 25 mailings per year. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nzq67LIQ3dw for more information about Kate's mailings. Ask her to give up some of her mailings to help the residents of the Town of Hempstead that were devastated by Hurricane Sandy. Instead of cutting down trees to make paper for mailings, the Town of Hempstead should use that wood to make houses for the people that lost theirs.Please forward this message to everyone you know. Thanks, Felix Procacci PS also see : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8t_gCTWuxAY
Felix Procacci November 15, 2012 at 12:05 pm
Everyone needs to let Kate Murray know that residents want our tax dollars to help residents, and NOT help finance her PERPETUAL PUBLICITY CAMPAIGN !!!
forward thinking November 15, 2012 at 12:34 pm
the cost of the feather beded govt. elected officials were allowed to get the best med., retirement, salaries, etc... WE ALLOWED THIS... teachers are our investmernt in the future they teach our kids, the fire / police protect and serve us, these should be well paid - it is far cheaper to have a vol. fire service with the "luxury" fire house which permotes the comradeship required for service than to have a paid dept.. look in the mirror at ourselves and the elected to see whythe taxes are high ...
Felix Procacci January 26, 2013 at 01:22 pm
A major reason why taxes are high, is local governments are NOT accountable :
Town of Hempstead Residents watch the following video to see your TAX DOLLARS at work : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xMVJ7Qb5_M&feature=youtu.be. A Newsday reporter was at this meeting and her editor didn't let her report it. Newsday gets a lot of advertising money from the Town of Hempstead. It always seems that their stories are not accurate (or incomplete).
Vincent January 26, 2013 at 02:01 pm
Felix Procacci: Perhaps the Patch readers would like to peruse this list from Newsday also. "What LI county, town and city employees earn". Interesting to say the least. http://www.newsday.com/long-island/towns/what-li-county-town-and-city-employees-earn-1.4374805
Vincent January 27, 2013 at 01:41 pm
NY Post Sunday 1-27 http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/new_yorkers_under_tax_u08yOI72aoaCMatFWL0FFM
Archie Bunker January 27, 2013 at 02:48 pm
Did anyone expect something different?
With no more elections to win, Obama has more flexibility to re-distribute our money as he sees fit
Vincent January 29, 2013 at 09:35 pm
US consumer confidence plunges on higher taxes.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/us-consumer-confidence-plunges-higher-150717970.html
Felix Procacci January 29, 2013 at 11:56 pm
In a nut shell, I believe this is why we have high taxes and unaccountable government officials : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwPGzkui8ow&feature=player_embedded
JP February 27, 2013 at 12:45 am
It's paying for their pensions. Who pays for my retirement? ME!
Robert April 13, 2013 at 04:50 pm
take a look at teacher salaries, you enter name or district and see 2011-2012 salary
http://data.lohud.com/labor/educator_pay12.php?frm_county=all&frm_name=&frm_location=patch&start=0&orderBy=grosspay_12&orderDir=1&orderBy=grosspay_12&orderDir=0

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